It’s the people who smile to your face that make it difficult. The liberal, progressive Madisonians who “really care.” Those are the people with whom it’s hardest to talk about race. For them, the problem doesn’t exist in their spaces. For them, it is all those racists “out there.”

The concept of talking about race with do-gooders being more difficult than with blatant racists might seem counterintuitive to many people. But for people of color all across America, especially in progressive cities like Madison, that refrain is all too familiar.

It was the first thing mentioned during a panel session on Sept. 16 at the UW Discovery Center. It was one of several events that made up Idea Fest, organized by The Capital Times. The panel was open to questions from the audience and the topic at hand was overcoming fears around discussing race in different spaces.

Alex Gee, Pastor at Fountain of Life Church, spoke at length about confronting what he sees as an unwillingness for certain parts of the population to understand they are as to blame for inequalities as anyone else.

“Most people are oblivious to the issues here,” Gee said describing the attitudes of many on the progressive left. “They think ‘it’s not in us, it’s in those Charlottesville people.’ What’s difficult is dealing with people who have the same ideals as those Charlottesville folks but are closeted with it. A lot of people I have spoken to would rather deal with blatant racists than with progressives who think they don’t contribute to the systemic issues. The people most in the way of progress are the progressives!”

Madison prides itself on saying it is a liberal and progressive city. But for many people of color, it is more daunting to, say, shop at a local mall here than drive through the heart of Dixie. That’s because many around the city claim that racist attitudes are not present when they truly are.

“It’s easier to deal with blatant racists than with the folks who just smile to your face,” Gee said.

Ananda Mirilli, who has spent years in Madison working towards improving restorative justice issues as well as chairing for Forward Community Investments, says that fears and insecurities plague having conversations about having conversations.

But, Mirilli told the audience, the fears and shames people experience around issues of color show we are capable of reaching out to one another in love as well.

“If you feel any fear or shame, you are also capable of feeling love and compassion,” Mirilli said. “I think love and compassion are key ingredients of creating a space in which to continue to have these conversations. I’m not saying that this space is going to be safe or happy. We’re not going to be able to Kumbaya our way out of this. But I am saying that if you come from a place of love and compassion for others, we can potentially have more real and authentic conversation.”

For Mirilli, the concept of driving the conversation with empathy makes it possible for us to see one another as we speak.

“Fear is very matched with shame,” she said. “These are some of our most primitive emotions but can cause us to be in denial. Neither of those help advance our conversation.”

At first, those fears made her feel like maybe she was the one who needed to change. That perhaps the way to bridge the gap of race was to adopt a more socially acceptable way of thinking, speaking and behaving.

A more white way of doing those things, that is.

“I felt like I had to change in order to be more white, so people would feel more comfortable,” Mirilli said.

Those words echoed in the souls of many people of color who know exactly what she means. People who have meetings at school to talk about their children’s behavior, for example. To see what can be done to make sure the child is more, well, proper. Appropriate. Basically, behaving whitely.

But it has other effects, too. One of the challenges the panel discussed and alluded to in terms of bringing these conversations to all of our different spaces is the concept that, for many in the white community, this just all seems so…angry.

The stereotype of blacks especially as being angry or on the precipice of violent outburst at all times is one of the fears many in the white community legitimately feel. Not that the feeling is legitimate. But the circumstances that produce those feelings are. Blacks are often portrayed in media and film or music as being thugs who are dangerous.

While everyone on the panel understood this as an issue, former Madison Police Chief Noble Wray has had the challenge of overcoming it with how those fears permeate community policing.

Wray spoke about respect being an antidote to the fears we have about discussing issues of race in the community and race as it pertains to police-related incidents that have blown out of control in the past few years.

“Respect is an active word,” Wray said. “It is not passive. Respect is not a spectator sport. You’ve got to be active, you’ve got to be engaged. Respect is not one of those things that are outcome driven. In our business, outcome driven means tickets, citations, warrants. But respect is having a relationship with a person on purpose.”

Many people of color have heard whites say that they are tolerant, that they don’t judge race. But Wray says tolerance is not the same thing as being actively engaged with other people.

“One of the things, if you go to any Police Department or company and you look at their guiding principles they say ‘we’re going to treat people with dignity and respect,’” Wray said. “Dignity and respect. You’ll see that somewhere up on the wall. But what I’ve learned over time is people don’t really drill down into the word of respect. Respect is on a continuum. On one hand, you have hostility, on the other hand, you have respect, and in the middle is tolerance. And tolerance is passive. If you’re tolerant, that does not necessarily mean that you’re actively engaged in respecting someone. Many times communities can feel that. They can feel that they’re just tolerated by you. You’ve got to be active, you’ve got to be curious, you’ve got to be engaged. And you’ve got to recognize that there are no invisible people.”

Wray pointed to national and some local incidents of police-involved shootings as being one of the things we begin to tolerate as a community that gets in the way of having this discourse.

“With police-involved shootings, I am beginning to wonder if we are growing accustomed to these instances occurring,” he said. “I’m really wondering. That bothers me because we can never, ever become numb and not take these seriously. The rhetoric coming from this administration makes policing harder. Because the rhetoric now is getting to be more Us, Them; We, They.”

Even national topics such as police-involved shootings, however, breed discomfort for the well-to-do’s. It’s more comfortable perhaps to view these as law enforcement issues rather than community-based issues related to how we see one another. It’s not comfortable, especially in progressive circles, to acknowledge our own roles in the policies and stereotypes that bred those situations.

Annette Miller, who has received human rights honors and founded EQT by Design, helping spread diversity and opportunity for businesses, says that discomfort is an important part of having a conversation.  

“What I hear is how uncomfortable it is for the people that are curious and the people wanting to understand,” Miller said. “Being uncomfortable is going to be really important. It’s okay if you feel you don’t know. Start where you’re at. If you’re in your neighborhood, start in your neighborhood. If you are in a workspace, start there. If you see that your workspace doesn’t include anyone you could have this conversation with, then explore that. Explore why you don’t have diversity in your workspace.”

Being uncomfortable is part of acknowledging that something is amiss. Overcoming that discomfort in order to have real talks and make real progress was the goal of this panel.

“It’s okay to be uncomfortable,” Miller concluded. “No one’s asking you to be perfect. No one is perfect. But what we’re thinking about is how can we offer well-being for one another. How can we make life better for each other.”